Patrick after reading todays paper about the reclass sounds that the only one crying is the AD from Casper..so it is alright for everyone else to travel.....just not the schools from Casper...I know this is a tough issue, either way it goes someone will not be happy.

Hitman, trust me: Folks from Casper aren't the only ones sitting on pins and needles this week. Cody, Jackson, Kemmerer and Lovell are also a little nervous this week, too.... and a ton of others are also curious to see what happens.

By the way, I posted a little bit of a rambling rant over on my other blog about the proposed football alignments... check it out. http://www.wyoming-football.com/blog/

--patrick

I say put casper schools on the bus, after all we all have to go to Casper for state tournaments. The least they can do is travel during the regular season. Plus, they will get home games just like the rest of us.

The purpose of the discussion should be to come up with the most equitable (not equal) way of aligning schools for competition. It shouldn't be about putting the screws to Casper, since we all have to go there for State events. I for one am thankful that we don't have to travel to Evanston for State. Now I would love to go to Laramie for Football, but that is another topic. Forget about conferences in 4A and for football just take the top 8 teams to the post season. I would also hate to see the bigs lose some of their non-conference opponents. Seriously, how competitive will Jackson be against Gillette. Allow the 4A schools to schedule their own games and develop a power rating system that works, to determine the playoff teams. In 4A it really should be about developing the athletes. And no, I am not from Casper or a 4A community.

HS Sports Fan: Just thought I'd say that it should be every program's (not just big schools) objective in every sport to develop the athlete, in every sense, not just physically. Now, on to the reclassification for football. I remember years ago when the thought was to let the larger schools in football play a round-robin and then seed for the playoffs. I thought it was a good idea then, and I still do. This could eliminate a situation like Gillette had this year, having to schedule a team from Utah to find a Week 0 contest. Scheduling for some of these schools is tough and a round robin with the top 10 schools (enrollment) and playing everyone would eliminate that problem. It could also alleviate the problem of playing big schools against smaller schools in football. Because of the numbers involved in the sport, it is harder to compete on an equal basis in football year in and year out as it is in other sports. I also know there are exceptions (i.e. Jackson's fine football team in '07), but they do not happen that often. As far as going to Laramie for the championships, I have made my feeling known on that before, so I'm not going to elaborate on that.

just heard the proposal was voted down 5-7

former 4A: Which one?

Kevin - I must say I agree with you on developing the whole person. As I look at the state of UW's football program and consider the footballers had the highest GPA of all sports programs at UW? Is that correct? Way to go Joe! When you are doing that, the wins will come. I just hope they come sooner than later, because that GPA won't be enough for some.

I sure hope the 6-man proposal didn't just die!

The "14 in 4A" proposal didn't pass. It was defeated 11-7. The six-man football proposal was approved by a wide margin.

See Wednesday's Star-Tribune for more. Speaking of which, I better go finish those stories....

--patrick

This is a good thing. there are now 4-5 schools that will have new programs, which means more students are getting an opportunity to play football.
It's sad to see the SEWAC fading into a memory as Guernsey goes down and Burns moves up, but Wyoming football will be better off for this move (I hope).
maybe if this works, the WHSAA can add 2-3 more small schools playing 6man and plans for new schools in Casper, Gillete and Cheyenne develop. If the Cheyenne school is close, why not let them grow into a 4A school by placing them in 2A for a cycle??

Reading the comments today from AD Shockley from Jackson in today's paper, I must laugh. It would take three pages to address each comment, so I'll make it brief. Look at the ADM figures, and most of the schools at the bottom of 3A are more than 1/3 the enrollment of Jackson. And yes we have to field golf teams, swim teams, drill teams, cheer squads and band. The last few years we almost didn't have enough for a JV girls basketball team. So are we supposed to feel bad when you have to play schools that have twice your enrollment when the Lymans, Mt. Views, and Kemmerers of the world have been playing schools with 3x the enrollment (Jackson and until last year Star Valley)? You should look at the opportunity to play in 4A as a chance to excel your programs. The Star Valley people that I talked to were excited to take on the challenge, particularly wrestling. Several years ago when Kemmerer and Thermopolis played each other two years in a row for the championship in boys basketball, it showed that two of the smallest schools could compete in the 3A ranks. I realize that the jump to 4A may be more difficult, but you will be able to compete. Shockley said that students may have to specialize in one sport, but there are already several Jackson students who specialize in one sport. Do any of the small schools feel the same?

Well put ranger fan, I believe that if you add up Kemmerer, Pinedale, and Lymans' enrollments they still don't add up to that of Jackson. Where is the equality.

Ranger Fan and 3A Fan,

Would you use your same argument for Jackson in 4A ? If Jackson and Cody were to move up they would be playing schools 3 times their size..even more. Jackson 660, Cheyenne East 2200. Could we agree the system is always going to put someone on the edges. I certainly don't blame any school for trying to promote the best opportunity to be competitive for their kids. We all have better knowledge of our own populations and I think it's really difficult for communities to understand each others dynamics. I applaud the discussions and difficult decisions the WHSAA members address.

Maybe this has been covered, but.....Why the jump from 11 man to 6 man? Why was it not possible for these schools to play 9 man? Just curious.

Patrick...Have you heard about football championships being played in Laramie??? I might have missed it

WELL PUT RANGER AND 3A FAN!!!

Someone is always going to be the big dog and someone is always going to be the little guy. Let's let Jackson take a turn on the other side. If they are so amazing at everything, then they should be able to jump right in and compete at that level and love the chance to do it. I saw a concern - but not the whining - from Cody. That makes a better statement.

Why is there a need to have a certain number of teams in this classification and a certain number in that classification. It seems to me these preconceived numbers of teams are what the problem is, not to mention 5 classifications. As in every state the larger classifications have the smaller number of teams, this inlcudes the 2nd largest classification, and then the smaller classifications are dominated with a large number of schools. Also why reclassify every two years? Enrollment should be judged on history not a two year influx of students. This should be obvious with teams yo-yoing every two years.

I understand that the overall lack of schools in Wyoming, and the distance between the schools, creates a problem with classification. However, why is it that we classify every two years instead of every year? Why do we classify boys and girls together instead of classifying each. A prime example of needing to classify boys and girls seperately was Lingle a few years ago. They had a huge population of girls and not many boys. Their girls should have been 2A and the boys should have been 1A. Nebraska has 2-3x the amount of schools that Wyoming does, and they classify their schools every year, and classify the boys and girls seperately. I don't think it would take that much extra work to do this in Wyoming. We seem to do a lot of things in Wyoming that go against common sense. It seems that instead at looking at what is best for everyone, we look at what is best for the good 'ol boys in the state and forget about the others.

Concerning football reclassification only; if travel is a point to be made with the association in regards to scheduling regular season conference games, why is Greybull and Lovell in the West with Thermopolis in the East. They can't play anybody in theur conference except each other without traveling thru Thermopolis and Thermopolis has to travel 150 miles to Glenrock or Big Horn for a conference match while Greybull lies 72 miles North. This makes sense?

RangerFan, I don't think it is fair to say you being 1/3 the size of Jackson is the same as, for example, Jackson being 1/3 the size of Cheyenne East. These aren't ADM numbers but for the sake of argument there close enough. Jackson- 660 Kemmerer-220 ,1/3 the size 440 less enrollment. Cheyenne East- 2,160 Jackson- 660, 1/3 the size 1,500 less enrollment. Point being, BIG difference in you competing against someone who has 440 more kids as opposed to someone competing against someone with 1,500 more kids. I'm not a Jackson supporter(far from it) or a Kemmerer basher I just have read many times the 1/3 or 1/2 the enrollment comment and I think you have to look at the numbers.

Wrestling Fan, I'm going to play the devil's advocate here. Is it easier for Jackson with their 660 kids to choose from, to come up with 15-20 quality football players to put out on the field during a game against East, Central, or one of the Casper schools, or easier for Mountain View or Kemmerer or Glenrock to come up with the same amount of quality kids to put out on the field for a game against Jackson?

When the decision comes down, I'm hoping that it's evident that travel time was a top priority. Everyone here spends a lot of time worrying about the competitiveness of programs at different levels but doubling the number of overnight trips in a season has a real negative impact on student athletes. Sometimes ADs, coaches and fans tend to forget about classrooms but the students and parents can't!

Sheesh...why all the finger pointing at Jackson? I know their AD spoke up but isn't that what he's supposed to do...look out for the interest of the school and student-athletes he is representing? Wrestling Fan's point about the difference between 440 students and 1500 is legit. Look how far SV has fallen since moving up the ladder. Yes Jackson and Cody have the largest enrollments in 3A, but it's not like they are powerhouses year in and year out. Jackson had a superb year across the board a year ago, and is competitive most of the time, but has had its share of down years too. The lower enrollment schools in 3A can still compete pretty well against those schools. Conversely to me it seems like the power in 4A is always slanted towards Casper/Cheyenne/Gillette. The smaller 4A schools on the western side of the state have a much more difficult time competing year in and year out. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

As a ten year coach in Jackson, I would love the chance to once again play the bigger schools. Coaching soccer in the 4A league was much more fun than in 3A. (We split last year) Our soccer program has produced several collegiate athletes and I believe it is because of the standard with which we were forced to play. Kemmerer will give us a heck of a game in football this year, and it is the quality of the programs you create, not the size of the school. Cokeville Volleyball anyone??? Travel will always be an issue. I'm a fan of getting the best competition available. Just for the record, I also coach middle school football and we play Green River, Evanston, Riverton, and love it.

Wrestling Fans comments are very legit, and I had posted something similar a while back. Everyone in this annual argument always uses 2X, 3X, 1/3, 1/2; but its not a percentage or multiple argument. It's a numbers argument, and it is much tougher to compete consistently with a 1,500 student difference than it is with a 450 student difference. That is why, like Poke96 pointed out, the 5A's almost always comes down to Casper/Gillette/Cheyenne. That's not to say the Green River or one of the smalls don't come up with a dandy team every few years, but they don't on a constant basis like the bigs do.

Wow, Jackson coach, what a refreshing attitude. Good for you. I hope that attitude is contagious and spreads throughout the state and your community. I think it's a positive example to young people.

Is a 14 team division really a state championship or really a league championship? I know we are in small pop. state, but I do believe that football should be the exception. The number of students that play matters. It is a pure #'s game. However, I can't see way their could not be 2 division in the other sports. Of course you would not have any dynasties, but the championship would mean more.

I'm not so much disappointed that the WHSAA voted this down as I am the fact that they seem to not have a long-range plan. Are we seriously going to re-hash this discussion every year or two? Yes, I'm aware of the two-year window, but for it to be this intense every time shows the long-term prognosis is WEAK for this current situation. I'm also feeling the need to defend SV a little when it comes to the whole "look what happened to them" debate. Our decline in some of our sports is as much to blame on some years being better than others as the class change. The fact that the competition level has been very tough just compounded it.

netshell? our b-ball team would have struggled in 3A last year. The fact the 4A West was a murderer's row last year just made things worse.

I love Jackson's Coach's thoughts. If you wanna be the best, then you gotta play the best. No excuses. All the class change has shown is that we've got to step it up a little more, and I think the kids are doing that. My best friend that I work with (who's from Rock Springs) shakes his head when people complain about it. He says: "you're in THE SHOW" now. it's an opportunity.

As for the football thing, I love the War as much as anyone, but don't we have to drive everywhere else for culminating events? I love towns hosting state football. Whether it's in SV, Buffalo, or anywhere else.

Pokes96, How has Star Valley fallen? They lost to Gillette by 3 points last year in State Wrestling, which placed them second. How is that a fall? Star Valley loves the challenge as the Ranger Fan stated. Also, it is not fair to judge a school and an activity that is going through new coaches. It takes time to work things out.

Ranea, there is no question that Star Valley had a great wrestling team last year. As they did for years before. But I think Pokes96 is just talking about the other sports. We all knew they could be competetive in wrestling.

It seems we've struck a few nerves, but good discussions here. I realize that jumping from 3A to 4A is more difficult than from 2A to 3A, but the point I was getting at was if you live in a glass house, don't throw stones (AD Shockley). Cody obviously handled the matter with a little more class. So what it sounds like from some in this blog is that if you can't be successful in every sport every year, it isn't fair to the school . I disagree with this premise. Look at what Green River did with their wrestling program year after year, and there last football championship team. That was one of the best teams I have ever seen play in this state. Natrona was steam rolled in that game, and they had an excellent team. Those victories, fewer as they may be, are much sweeter than those playing a much smaller school. And guess what? Green River is knocking on the door again with almost the smallest enrollment in their classification. They will also likely be in the top three in wrestling. They make no excuses. No matter the difference in numbers, good coaches and hard working kids will win. Who is ranked #1 this week in 5A football? Yeah, Sheridan with almost 1100 less in enrollment than the top two schools in 5a. Why? Because Don Julian has brought his winning attitude to town. Do you think he is worried about having 1100 fewer kids to choose from? Most athletes want to be challenged and pushed to see how good they are. So to pick and choose by saying " We all knew they could be competetive in wrestling." doesn't hold water. Yeah, Star Valley is great in wrestling, but those kids and coaches have put in more work than most will know to get where they are. Their other sports will get there also in time. The bottom line is that the WHSAA just ruined the best, most equitable classes we have seen with the current 5 classicications. Would it really have been that hard to add 6 man to the current configuration? This 5 classification system should have been extended to all sports.

Once again we went to 5 classifications for the big schools, that is fine but Wyoming should only put the large schools in there, why do we need 10 or 12 schools in that classification? If there are only 8 in the 5A classification then so be it, shoot this would allow them to play each other once and still leave a week open to play out of state teams. Is this not the whole reason for 5 classifications, because the large schools wanted to play the out of state teams? This would allow 4A to be schools of the same size in general and if there is only 8 or 10 who cares? Then if there is 13 in 3A or 17 in 2A who cares? why do we have preconceived numbers for teams in classifications? Reclassify and put teams of the same size together this way there is no towns getting the worst of it. This is for the student athletes in the end.

Hey all,

Just to keep this straight, I talked at length with both Tony Hult from Cody and Sean Shockley from Jackson before the meetings this week. Both men were extremely classy when I talked to them and I apologize if it came off as anything but that in my stories. They both have their schools' best interests at heart and if the WHSAA board had moved them up to 4A, I don't think they would have been happy but I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't have heard too much complaining from either of those two guys. Both of them made it clear to me if it was the will of the WHSAA board to move them up, they would have accepted it full-bore. All they were trying to do was fight for what was best for their kids. Can't blame anyone for that. For what it's worth....

And now I'm going to rant a bit. :)

I've said this on several occasions, but the five-class arrangement drives me crazy. Equity and fairness are words that've been tossed around a lot here, and if equity and fairness is playing schools that are close to your size.... then you're going to limit yourself to about five or six schools in this entire state. Wyoming is NOT Colorado, it's NOT Utah and it's NOT Arizona. It's Wyoming. There are only 70 high schools here and it's ridiculous to divide that many schools into any more than four classifications. Talk about a pretty cheap state championship. "Congratulations, you're better than seven other schools! Here's a state championship trophy!" That's pretty lame.

(Yes, the five-class football drives me crazy, but my stance might be softening on that with the introduction of six-man).

What really gets me in all this is that schools don't have to play the teams in their conference during the regular season. Schools have the option of playing whoever they want to play. If Lyman wants to say, "We're not playing Jackson and we're not playing Cody," they can do that. And if schools like Lyman, Mountain View, etc., were really, truly serious about equity of competition, they'd do that.

Instead, they see the WHSAA as this big, bad bully telling them what they have to do -- but the only thing the WHSAA is telling you is that you have to play in this particular classification for your regional and state tournaments. That's it. Regular seasons are completely up to the schools. And like I said, if schools are serious about addressing this whole perceived equity problem that's as drastic as they say, then I'd expect to see these schools take some drastic measures to compensate. As of yet, I haven't seen anyone do it. I haven't even seen anyone hint at it. Must not be that drastic after all.

(And, yes, you go into the regional tournament as the last-place seed if you do that. Well, like I said, if times are that drastic, then measures that drastic should be taken. Right?)

Sorry, I'm ranting. To sum: Hult and Shockley are both classy guys and I apologize if it came off any differently. Five-class arrangements make no sense in a state with 70 high schools. If schools are serious about the equity problem, then they should take some action of their own and not wait for the WHSAA.

Phew.

--patrick

Pat,
Very well said. I've said it before, MT and SD have 130 schools or so in one classification, WY has 70 total. Schools in this state are going to have to play people bigger than they are, that's just the nature of things. I totally agree on the state championship issue too. Going to state in WY in basketball, I'm sorry, is a joke. Half the teams in 3a go as it is now. Many other states have three tournaments in post season play just to get to the state tournament. Making more classes in any sport cheapens what is already a pretty easy road to post season play for WY schools. In fact, if you want parity, make two classes in basketball and let schools schedule who they want and then seed them for regional tournaments on a power point system. Then schools can play who they want, they can quit complaining about this parity garbage issue, and then state basketball would actually be hard to qualify for. I grew up in WY and played basketball here before playing college hoops. I thought state was a great accomplishment until my college teammates told me what they had to do just to get to state where they played high school hoops. Now coaching boys hoops in CO, we have a heck of alot harder road to state than schools in WY do. As a coach, I would love to only have to be one of the best 8 out of 16 to go to state......!!!!

In football you do not to get choose your schedule, your schedule is set by the state. That is why you have teams traveling all over the state instead of playing teams within 1 hour. You know travel is a big deal!! I think that the question is not how many classifications there are but who is which one. If there is only 8 super schools then so be it, let them call it 5A, but put the schools together that should be there. If 4A has 15 as a result of less in the mega confrence 5A then so be it, then if there is a lot of teams in 3A and 2A so be it. Sports are for the student athletes. Take the 70 schools do not put a number by their name and group them by population, yes this may do away with the preconcieved required amount of teams in each division, but will have teams playing teams their own size. And to take away from a 14, 15, 16, 17,18 year old kids success in placing in a sport at a state championship because of the small number of schools is pathetic. These kids no matter the number of schools is still a special accomplishment and I guarentee is worth just as much to that student athlete as if there was 50 schools in their division. Shame on anyone who wants to cut down the accomplishments of a teenage student athletes success.

Wyoming with small populatuion, small number of schools, and with co-oped schools making up such a small number of schools does in a way create its own excitement. As in larger states there are schools who are competing for the fun of it because of the large number of schools, what fun is that? except for the schools who are always at the top. In Wyoming yes it is easier to qualify for state but thats what makes it fun for every school. It sure seems the regular season games are more interesting because each team does have that feeling that if they get hot they could qualify for state. These teams such as Laramie two years ago in boys basketball if they get a chance can create havoc and bring home hardware. I would be willing to bet that those student athletes who placed second are extremely happy about their accomplishment and I am willing to bet they do not think for one second that they beleive that they were lucky there is only a handful of teams in 4A

Patrick although I don't coach BB, I can tell you that our coaches and AD would love to play the " The Big Schools" the problem is that when we were dropped down to 2A the bigger schools didn't want top play us any more. If you check Mtn View has never complained about or tried to avoid the higher competition as coaches we love to compete against the best.

I've ranted on this before, so I'll keep it short and simple:

3 classes (16-20-34)

Or something like that with the numbers. Pat may be able to find the entry where I ranted in more detail.

After I wrote this last night, I got the feeling I was kind of like Scrooge:

Me: "Those smaller schools can just play down."

Bob Cratchit: "But some schools would rather die!"

Me: "Well then if they're going to die they'd better do it, and decrease the surplus population!"

(*hangs head in shame*)

sports fan makes two good points -- the football schedule is out of schools' hands and state championships mean the exact same to a team whether they've beaten 12 or 120 teams to get there. Both points make plenty of sense and they're well taken. Thanks.

And Coach G (and all others in the Bridger Valley), sorry if it seemed like I was singling out Mountain View or Lyman in particular. I do understand that scheduling is not as cut-and-dry as I make it out to be. :)

Burke, I'll try and find your comment where the three-class arrangement is brought up in detail. Give me some time and I'll try to track it down...

--patrick

I think sports fan has it right - separate out the 5 or 6 oversized schools and everything becomes easy. Putting them in their own classification would motivate them to look more closely at adding schools to their community. If they did this, they could drop down into 3A and that classification would simply become larger (no need to push down into 2A). Everyone wins - even the big school dynasties because more kids will be participating.