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Sports Goulash

Odds and ends of Wyoming high school sports.

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Subjectivity

Posted by: Patrick Schmiedt on April 11, 2008 at 11:39PM EST

Here on the sports desk tonight, we received two extremely different accounts of the girls soccer game between Riverton and Cheyenne Central. The only thing that sounded similar in both calls was that Riverton won the game 1-0. Everything else was up in the air.

Central claimed a 37-6 shot advantage, and a 21-2 advantage in shots on goal. Riverton, meanwhile, claimed a shot difference of 11-7 for Central.

It's just like Spandex: The critical areas are covered, yet it still doesn't fit right.

How can two people wtching the same game end up with such drastically different numbers? Well, it has to do with subjectivity.

Remember, the coaches themselves don't normally take the team's stats -- instead, they leave that task (rightfully so) to the team manager, or, sans manager, to some random JV player. Usually, with clipboard and pencil in hand, they're more than eager to give a shot on goal to one of their friends, and probably less than eager to do so to someone on the other team.

That doesn't make it right or wrong. That's just how it is, especially in a sport like soccer where stats can be as different as the people taking them.

Put two statisticians next to each other at the exact same game, and chances are high that their stats won't be identical at the end of the day. While the difference may only be a few yards in football or a couple rebounds in basketball, in soccer, stats can be widely different based on interpretation. Is that long through ball picked up by the goalkeeper a shot? Is it a shot on goal? Is that crossing pass that goes out of bounds and ends up as a goal kick a shot? Is that mis-struck kick that goes wildly away from the goal still a shot?

Variance is common and understandable. And when you realize that it's usually untrained JV players taking the stats that'll end up in the paper, variances like the big one we saw here on the desk on Friday night are for the most part excusable.

(In situations like this, we at the Star-Tribune tend to use the stats of the home team by default, although we will use visiting team stats to augment any missing info from the home team. However, if the home team doesn't send or phone in its stats to us, we will use visiting stats exclusively. Hope that explains the differences you'll see in the recap in Saturday's paper. As always, you can call or e-mail me with any questions that you ever have about how we do stuff.)

Posted by patrick.schmiedt@trib.com

Send This | Categories: Soccer

(41) Comments

Posted by: Bulldog Fan on April 12, 2008 1:40AM EST

I will be the first to admit that I know nothing about soccer, but I have a couple questions. How important are the stats? Are they used to determine all-conference, all-state, etc.? Are they provided to college scouts? Are they used to determine the starting lineup? In some sports the stats become very important for the reasons mentioned. If they are important enough to keep then they should be important enough to keep right. Guess it's up to the coach to make sure he has someone responsible and/or knowledgeable using the pencil.

Posted by: Soccer Fan (Not) on April 12, 2008 9:20AM EST

Another reason to not like soccer.

Posted by: gtown on April 12, 2008 11:45AM EST

I agree that you will rarely get the same stats as another team gets. But I dont see how you could be off by THAT much.

Posted by: Wolverine73 on April 12, 2008 12:03PM EST

I'm, by no stretch of the imagination, a soccer fan and like Bulldog fan question how important the shot on goal stat is in the bigger scheme of things, but some common sense would have to factor in too. Cheyenne had 21 shots on goal and came up empty; and Riverton only got two shots and hit 50%?? I would say Riverton has an all state goalie and Cheyenne better promote their JV girl......

Posted by: tmillerwyo on April 13, 2008 9:46PM EST

Only one stat is meaningful, that's wins. The team that loses may use individual-stats to justify their team effort, but it should never be used as an excuse for the lose. Too much emphasis is placed on individual-stats for all-star sections. Last season in 4A boys BB I watched a Campbell County team dominate a Rock Springs team in the state championship game, but RS ended up with one more player selected to the all-state (first) team than CC. CC could have won that game by 30+ points (with a 8-man rotation, instead playing all 12 players), and padded the starters individual-stats, but the coach chose the team first (I'm not a CC fan). I don't know a coach (in any sport) who basis their lineup according to individual-stats. These coaches see the kids every day in practice and most coaches want to put together the best team possible. I like how the Shrine Bowl team is selected. Its by the individual team coaches (who talk to other FB coaches). They choose kids that give them the best chance to win the game. Meaning they choose the best players. I personally know of players selected to Shrine Bowl who did not have the individual-stats during their senior year deserving of a selction (because of injury), but were very good players. Also, any college recruitor who is worth anything will not assess an athlete soley on individual-stats.

Posted by: Bulldog Fan on April 13, 2008 11:20PM EST

The "stat" thing has been cussed and discussed by many people and in a recent conversation I had there was quite a bit of controversy about it. I think it was obvious how many coaches perceive that information by how many did not participate in the basketball "stats" information posted to Wyopreps this season. If they are so unimportant then why are they kept? I don't know anything about that 4A game or about how all-state players are selected, but isn't it more than just the stats at state? If so, then someone is using the gathered information. While I agree with you about the college recruitor they have to have a starting point. It costs time and money to scout, so I doubt they are going to look at players that average 10 points a game when they can go look at players that average 20 points a game.(or assists, or steals, etc.) I'm really not saying I agree or disagree. I have mixed feelings, but if the stats are going to be used for ANY reason they should be as accurate as possible.

Posted by: big bb fan on April 14, 2008 6:37PM EST

I think stats that are published may catch an eye of a college scout but they will go directly to the coach if the player looks like a good prospect. The all-state selection is not based on stats. The coaches select "x" number of players from their team that they feel are worthy, then those players are voted on. Ideally, each team would have at least one representative but not always the case. I wish Wyoming had a first team, second team and even a third team, all-state selection. There are a lot of good players that deserve the recognition.

Posted by: HS Sports Fan on April 15, 2008 12:50AM EST

big bb fan - The same can be said for all other sports. Maybe even an honorable mention for All-State. You see it for All-Conference. I also think something needs to be done about coaches voting in a block for their conference and not necessarily for the best players. When the East conference in 3A has fewer all-state players than the west this year, something is completely screwed up. I don't have the list in front of me, but I believe out of the 12 guys named to 3A All-state, only 4 came from the East, and it was an all East semi. Newcastle plays in the championship game and only gets one kid? Buffalo goes 24-2 and gets one kid? Wheatland rated 1, 2 or 3 for most of the year and they get - 1 kid? Lander - 1 kid??

Posted by: big bb fan on April 15, 2008 12:10PM EST

I certainly don't have the answers but it appears that the teams consist of 12 players and they try to spread the honors around. You are right HS sports fan, it does seem to favor the West.
3A Boys All State

Ryan Stafford - Jackson

Zach Paris - Cody

Keeton Tucker - Kemmerer

Braden Fink - Lovell

Conor Raney - Pinedale

Michael Hildebrand - Powell

Chantz Ramos - Worland

Jerad Anderson - Buffalo

Jordan Lisco - Douglas

Kade Ferguson - Newcastle

Tony Redman - Lander

Eric Heatherly - Wheatland

Posted by: Wyo bball fan on April 17, 2008 11:25AM EST

The all-state team consist of players that are considered to be the best in their class. This is based off of how they played all season long. Team and conference has nothing to do with it. It is an individual award. Just because a team makes it to the state semi-finals doesn't mean they are going to or should have a bunch of players on the all-state team.
What they need to do is to also have an all-tounament team from the state tournament and recognize the kids that performed the best during the tournament. Five of the kids on the all-state list wouldn't have even had a chance of getting on an all-tournament team because their teams didn't make it to state. Were the remaining players on that all-state list the best players during the state tournament??? Was it a different kid on the team who had a career weekend and made the difference in their team advancing???
Anyway, for me when I look at the all-state team I see players that coaches believe were the best in the state during the regular season no matter what their team achieved. Then I look at the tournaments and at the kids who deserve to be awarded for their performances at those tournaments and where is that recognition???? I think it would be quite an honor to be selected to an all-tournament team at the state championships or even to an all-tournament team at regionals.

Posted by: big bb fan on April 17, 2008 4:48PM EST

Well said Wyo bball fan. The majority of other states have an all tournament team. Maybe Wyoming will catch on in the near future. Also they should look into the officiating situation. John Sparks from Cokeville is absolutely the worst official I have ever seen. He should bow out now!

Posted by: Patrick Schmiedt on April 17, 2008 11:50PM EST

big bb fan,

If you're going to call someone out like that, you better attach your full name. That's pretty weak.

--patrick

Posted by: Chris Gray on April 18, 2008 12:09AM EST

Nicely put, Patrick!

Posted by: Bulldog Fan on April 18, 2008 10:59AM EST

Let's move on big bb fan. You have badmouthed this guy on the forum before. We all have our own idea on bad refs, but you are accomplishing nothing by posting nasty remarks here. If you are so pumped up by him then get busy and go through the proper channels to get rid of him. I don't know what those channels are, but they must exist. I for one am sick of hearing about it and it has nothing to do with this conversation.

Posted by: HS Sports Fan on April 20, 2008 2:12AM EST

Wyo BBall Fan - I agree that it would be nice to see an All-Tourney Team. However, I truly believe the All-State selection is a political mess, for all sports. When you have a kid that leads the class in stats in his or her position but doesn't get All-state because #1 - grade and #2 teams win-loss record, that is a bunch of crap! I stand by my comments that in 3A the West coaches blocked their votes to get west kids on the All-State team, where East coaches voted for the kids that deserved it.

Posted by: Sundance Kid on April 20, 2008 10:47AM EST

I don't know exactly how this all-state stuff works, but I know that in 2A in 2006 Moore and Emrick(then juniors) should have been all-state in football. Moore was leading 2A in passing and Emrick was leading receiver in the state regardless of class. The two kids that made all-state from Sundance were OK players, but they certainly didn't have the "stats" the other boys had. A lot of us fans were quite suprised, but one explanation that went around was that the boys that were selected were seniors and Moore and Emrick would have another year. I don't know if it was small town politics, parents getting to the coach, the coach not nominating them or some other reason. The only reason I am pointing this out is to show that "stats" certainly can't be the only factor when the coaches make their selections. I do know that they play the "I'll give you this if you give me that" game. I am with HS Sports Fan on the idea that there are too many politics being played. It really makes you second guess the honor of being selected to the all-state team. Maybe it's not the "prestigious" honor we all think it is.

Posted by: tmillerwyo on April 21, 2008 5:01PM EST

No matter how all-star teams are selected, individuals will have differing opinions on who should have been selected (and how they should be selected). In WYO HS FB players are selected primarily on team-stats (wins & losses) and then on individual-stats. This means that the state champions will have more all-state selections than the other teams, and on down. So if the state champions are awarded x spots, the coach of that team will choose his best x players (w/o consideration to position). What hurt the Moore and Emerick kids was they played on a 5-4 team in '06 that lost by 3-TDs in the playoffs. But Sundance Kid, you forgot to mention this same system worked to their advantage in '05 as they made the all-state team (w/ 7 other teammates) on that state championship team. I would much rather see all-star teams selected by team-stats rather than individual-stats, since the object of the sport is to win games (not record great statistics, or make the most outstanding play). This is why I say I don't really care how accurate individual stats are that are reported by some student manager.

Posted by: HS Sports Fan on April 21, 2008 11:09PM EST

tmillerwyo - I disagree with you wholeheartedly. Basing allstate determination on team success wouldn't give proper credit to the athlete from a poor team. I think of an individual named Kyle Carr from Newcastle who was the 4A player of the year, and Newcastle only won one game. As a team, they were pathetic, but he was a stud! They got it right in this case.

Posted by: Chris Gray on April 21, 2008 11:33PM EST

Easy, HS Sports fan!

Posted by: Sundance Kid on April 22, 2008 12:49AM EST

I do see both sides of this "argument". I do think it is a give and take in that private little room. And yes, there were a lot of All-state players from Sundance in '05 and I know that it was because of the state championship. So, you are saying that the basketball player of the year from Gillette was selected because his team won the state championship? If TR had won 2A would Robbie Johnson have gotten player of the year, or if Sundance had won would Cody Emrick have gotten it? There are others, too, but I am not familiar with the other classes. There were quite a few players that had better stats than the Gillette kid.(sorry I can't remember his name) I don't mean to take anything away from him, I am just curious if you think it was because of the team record or because he was in 4A since it wasn't based on his stats?

Posted by: JA on April 22, 2008 2:40AM EST

I played with Kyle Carr on that team, and he was every bit as good of a football player as the award stands for. And to correct you HS Sports Fan the Dogies won zero games that year. We beat Moorcroft in the opener, but an ineligible player played and we had to forfeit...
.
I myself see the All-State selection as a pretty shady system. My younger brother went to state 3 times in basketball(1 w/ Newcastle and 2 w/ Buffalo). During his sophomore and junior year he was one of maybe 5 athletes in the top 10 in 3A in three statistical categories(points, boards, and blocks). Both years he was passed up for seniors on the west side of the state, with less statistical accomplisments and on teams that didn't make the tourney. Of course I'm a bit biased, but it just doesn't add up to me...
.
On the topic of the GPOY, it would take an out of this world statistical year or being committed to a Division 1 program(exposure) for any athlete in 1A or 2A to win the award. I didn't get to see Emerick or Johnson play this year, and I'm sure they are phenomenal players, but on the list of B-ball GPOY, there are four small school athletes; Brett Keisel-Greybull, Greg Sawyer-Burns, Dale Reed-Baggs, and Myron Chaavez-Ethete. And in football Cory Fosher-Lusk is the only small schooler to win it.

To tell ya the truth I had never heard of the kid from Gillette(Justin Nelson) that won the GPOY until I saw it on Wyopreps. But the fact that there really weren't any athletes that dominated throughout the season you almost have to give the award to the best player on the best team.

Posted by: tmillerwyo on April 22, 2008 2:44PM EST

What some of you are describing about 3A all-state BB selection sounds like a little backroom deal making ("I'll vote for your kid, if you vote mine"). In such a case it seems neither team-stats or individual-stats are being utilized, heavily. I don't necessary think that the GPOY has to come from the best team. Was Justin Nelson a good choice for GPOY in BB? Yes. Was he the best? Maybe not. Was he the best player on the Gillette team? Maybe not. Ryan Hutchison is also a very good BB player. Personally, I thought Michael Deitz from Natrona was the best player in the state (but he has a chance to win it next year). Individual-stats from players on very good teams tend to be lower, because their total playing time goes down, so they don't run up the score on bad teams. JA, I also agree for a 1A or 2A player to win such an award they must have outstanding individual-stats. But it's very hard to compare individual-stats within team-sports between classifications. My initial point was how could RS have more kids on the 4A all-state team than Gillette. In my mind, the best teams have the best players.

JA, is there a list of past WYO GPOY on the internet?

Posted by: gtown on April 22, 2008 4:15PM EST

tmillerwyo- here is a link for past winners. Once you get in the site it is pretty easy to navigate and find everything you need to know.

http://playeroftheyear.gatorade.com/playeroftheyear/

Being from Gillette and watching just about every game lets you see who is who around the state. Justin Nelson wasn't really the whole team but he sure did run everything for them. He was a fantastic point guard. Was he the best player in the state? probably not. But without him Gillette wouldn't of won it this year.

Posted by: 3A on April 22, 2008 4:50PM EST

When will the B-ball All-Star rosters be released??? This getting a bit rediculous! Parents and Athletes can't schedule summer/senior trips because they are anaware if they have been chosen to participate.... What have you heard Patrick?

Posted by: Mick on April 22, 2008 6:06PM EST

3A - It may not have been formally announced or released, but I think players and parents have been informed if there son or daughter has been selected for the Wyo-MT games and the North/South games. When the official announcement will be made...I don't know.

Posted by: Patrick Schmiedt on April 22, 2008 9:54PM EST

3A -- I've heard NASHING! But... I just went back and looked on our archives, and we didn't get the rosters last year until April 27. So I guess we shouldn't be suprised that they're not out yet. My guess is either later this week or early next week.

--patrick

Posted by: Mick on April 24, 2008 11:48AM EST

Sundance Kid - To be selected as the Gatorade POY you have to be nominated. I don't know about Cody from Sundance, but Rob from TR didn't get nominated, to my knowledge, by his coach or anyone else. If they don't know about them, they cant' vote for them. JA- I think a small school athlete could win this award if proper steps are taken to make the committee aware of the players. Rob (from 2A Tongue River Football team) won the National Football Foundation and College Hall of Fame Top Scholar Athlete award and he was up against some other great, great top notch kids from larger schools (and smaller ones as well). Patrick was at the banquet and I am sure he will agree. The difference is the committee was made aware of his accomplishments on and off the field. I am sure that Justin Nelson is a great player and a great young man. Congrats.

Posted by: Sundance Kid on April 24, 2008 2:55PM EST

Mick, Thanks for the information. It is hard to know how all this stuff works unless you are in the middle of it. I also want to congratulate Justin Nelson on his honor. I wasn't meaning to take anything away from him. Just trying to figure out how it all comes together.

Posted by: JA on April 24, 2008 3:46PM EST

I'm not sure if I agree with you Mick... Sure its possible, but like i mentioned above the small school athlete has to have pre season hype and a phenomenal year. You can't tell me that committees don't discredit a kids accomplishments at 1A/2A if they are being matched by an individuals at 3A/4A/5A(football)... Not taking anything away from small schools, but I imagine the committee looks allot at classifications when they debate over the award.

Posted by: Mick on April 24, 2008 7:12PM EST

JA- I suppose to some extent you are correct. I am sure college coaches look at the caliber of competition a team plays against when evaluating a player so committees probably do the same thing. If that were the case though, why would a player from a small school "ever" win such an award. There are a lot of great players out there. By the way, is it your bro that just signed with BHSU. He looks like he will be a great fit. (If it is him) Take care

Posted by: JA on April 24, 2008 9:46PM EST

Mick, he committed and is in the proccess of signing. I think its a perfect fit for him, being a young program and proximity to our parents and grandparents. The coaches have been very good to him and it looks like he will be playing a 3 or 4, so a buffer/red shirt year might be needed to get him up to strength and speed. He's a hard worker though and doesn't like watching, so hopefully he'll hit the weights and gym this summer and be able to run with'em come fall.
.

On the topic of GPOY... Looking at the names who won it from small schools, you see allot of familiar names... Brett Keisel in 96, wasn't his sport of choice since he is now the starting defensive tackle for the Pitsburg Steelers... Greg Sawyer in 1993, some people on GOWYOGO have in their top 5 all-time, couldn't find anything else on him. Dale Reed in 1989, got a scholarship to Big 10 Iowa then transferred to Wash. State,(played under Kelvin Sampson) and now is a successful head coach in Texas. Myron Chavez in 1986, went and ran with the Rebels at UNLV, and I read on GOWYOGO site that he would pack the Events Center on Thursday nights. Haha, I guess what I'm getting to here is that each of the above stated played at an extremely high level. played Division 1 athletics(not sure about Sawyer), and all can be found on google...
.

Sorry for babbling and I'm not sure what I'm still doin on here when its Pitcher Night at Love Joys.

Posted by: CA on April 24, 2008 10:50PM EST

JA - I sure hope you are getting ready for finals!!!!

Posted by: Soccer Fan (Not) on April 27, 2008 12:14AM EST

OK - Explain this one to me. Jackson girls go to Newcastle for a Soccer game. They are leading 1-0, and they forfeit due to field conditions? Did Jackson's coach decide it was unsafe for the Broncs to play on Newcastle's field or what? Did the officials believe the field was fine? SOmeone please tell me!
.
Perhaps they should play the soccer games on the football field, instead of the practice field. The football coaches complain about it all the time, saying there are holes all over the place. I am not a soccer fan (as the name implies), but the Administration in Newc needs to grab both ears and tug real hard. It says Newcastle on the front of their uniforms, they are representing you, accept it and accept them!!!!!!
.
If I were an AD in a 3A soccer town, I would refuse to play in Newcastle.

Posted by: Patrick Schmiedt on April 27, 2008 3:56AM EST

Soccer Fan (Not):

Let's get this straight. First, it was Newcastle that was leading 1-0 at halftime. Second, the officials said the field was fine to play on (that according to the Newcastle AD) but Jackson refused to play the second half.

That's pretty much all I know about Saturday's situation. As for the soccer field itself there in Newcastle, well, I don't have any idea what it's like, so I can't address that.

--patrick

Posted by: Bulldog Fan on April 27, 2008 9:29AM EST

Patrick....I was confused also because the Trib article said that Jackson was ahead at halftime.

Posted by: T. Quigley on April 27, 2008 12:36PM EST

Soccer Fan (Not),

As the AD in Newcastle, our soccer teams have requested to play on the practice field due to its width and also because there is not a crown on the field (as our football field currently has). To my knowledge not one visiting soccer team has complained about our playing surface. If the football team has complaints, that is also news to me. I would appreciate you telling me who your sources are so if we do have problems with our field, our maintenance staff can address them.

The incident yesterday came as a suprise to all of us involved with the game. Newcastle was leading 1-0 and a snow squall came through with about 5 minutes to go in the first half. The snow continued into to halftime and the Jackson coaching staff contacted the game officials and requested the game be stopped. The center official (from Gillette) deemed the field the playing surface was playable and safe for all athletes. Please remember, that we had already played a complete JV contest and 1/2 of the varsity game with NO field concerns. The Jackson coaching staff said they had several players injured from previous games and since this was a non-conference game, decided to end the contest.

As far as the Newcastle administration not supporting soccer, my office number is 746-2713. Please provide me with a phone call and I would be happy to discuss my support of soccer or any other Dogie activity at any time. I believe if you talk with our soccer coaches, they are supported on an equal basis with any other Dogie activity. I look forward to your phone call.

Posted by: T. Quigley on April 27, 2008 1:19PM EST

Wyopreps had the score listed as Jackson 1-0 over Newcastle when the game was halted. Also, Wyopreps had Newcastle listed as a 1-0 forfeit winner. The game is not considered a forfeit as the NFHS rules which govern soccer say a contest can be considered a full game after 1/2 of play is finished.

Within 15 minutes after the Jackson coaches had asked the game to finished, the weather broke. The playing surface was damp but did not have any snow accumulations or water puddles.

Posted by: Patrick Schmiedt on April 27, 2008 6:43PM EST

Mr. Quigley, thanks for the explanation. We appreciate it. I know whenever this stuff comes up, rumors tend to fly wild, and I'm glad that those have been nipped in the bud.

Bulldog fan, if you read the roundup, it quite clearly shows that Newcastle was ahead at halftime, even listing who scored the goal.

--patrick

Posted by: Bulldog Fan on April 27, 2008 8:11PM EST

Sorry Patrick, I read that on Wyopreps not the Trib.

Posted by: Soccer Fan (Not) on April 29, 2008 1:18AM EST

Mr. Quigley - I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers with my lack of support comment. The comment wasn't necessarily directed at you. Is soccer funding completely by the school now? I know the kids were (in previous years) having to pay for their own lodging on overnighters and the club was or did purchase all uniforms, equipment, and paid for officials. Is soccer still on their probationary period?
.
And I may have jumped the gun a bit when I read on WYOPREPS that Jackson was up 1-0 when the game was forfeited. Where did WyoPreps get there information?

Posted by: T. Quigley on April 29, 2008 7:31AM EST

Soccer Fan (Not),

Newcastle soccer is still on their probationary period. Please remember when they approached the school board 4 years ago, it was the soccer group who proposed current system of funding, etc. The soccer program will be up for review prior to the WHSAA activity scheduling in early November. It will be at that time to determine if the funding is coming from the school. If your earlier comment was directed at funding, our soccer program is different. The support given the teams and athletes is equal across the board.

The WYOPREPS report came from the same email that I sent the Startribune. How two media outlets could get a different story from the same printed message is beyond me.