patrick.schmiedt's Blog | Is 14 better than 12?

Casper Star-Tribune Online - my.trib.com

Sat, Nov 21, 2009 Welcome ! Sign Out | Account Settings | HELP

Advanced Search

E-Edition

Rate This Blog

0 rating(s)

Archives

• Current Entries
• November 2008
• October 2008
• September 2008
• August 2008
• July 2008
• June 2008
• May 2008
• April 2008
• March 2008
• February 2008
• January 2008
• December 2007

Latest Entries

Links

Report This Blog

Search:

Sports Goulash

Odds and ends of Wyoming high school sports.

<< Prev | Main | Next >>

Is 14 better than 12?

Posted by: Patrick Schmiedt on March 22, 2008 at 11:49PM EST

Last February, the Wyoming High School Activities Association made its first stride to revamp the state's classification alignment by giving preliminary approval to a proposal that would add two schools to Class 4A.

Class 4A has been set at 12 teams since 1991; the WHSAA's new proposal has 4A with 14.

Here's the question, though: If, indeed, the WHSAA makes the move to 14 for 4A, how do you divide the schools?

Just for reference, schools Nos. 13 and 14 -- the unlucky schools that would have to move from 3A to 4A -- are most likely Cody and Jackson. They'd join current 4A schools Gillette, Cheyenne East, Cheyenne Central, Natrona County, Kelly Walsh, Rock Springs, Laramie, Sheridan, Evanston, Green River, Riverton and Star Valley.

Geographically, one way looks superior: an East-West split. Put Gillette, Sheridan, Natrona County, Kelly Walsh, Cheyenne East, Cheyenne Central and Laramie in the East, and put Cody, Riverton, Green River, Rock Springs, Evanston, Star Valley and Jackson in the West.

But in the name of conference equity and getting the best eight teams to the state tournament -- you know, the reasons used to justify the current 4A conference alignment -- there's another alignment coming, a North-South.

It'll be Gillette, Sheridan, Natrona County, Kelly Walsh, Cody, Riverton and Jackson in the North, and Central, East, Laramie, Rock Springs, Green River, Evanston and Star Valley in the South.

Looks familiar, right? Of course. It's the North-South split that 4A schools used from 1991-2007, back when the 12 schools in 4A were so ingrained that change didn't seem like it'd ever happen. The only difference between the old and the new is the inclusion of Star Valley and Jackson -- Jackson to the North, Star Valley to the South.

And if the WHSAA chooses to expand 4A to 14, I'm afraid that's what'll happen.

The East-West split presents the same problems it did two years ago -- of the eight largest schools in the state, seven of them would be in the East. Most times, size of the student body equals success on the field/court. For those in charge, that's a huge, huge deal.

I'm not sure why. Personally, I'd be more than happy to trade equity at state (which is always in question) for equity in the regular season (which tends to pan itself out over a two-month stretch).

OK. I've said my piece. What do you think? What's more important, having equal conferences while getting the best eight teams to state -- or is it playing schools closest to you, even if it means the best eight teams don't always make it to state?

Moreover, what do you think of the WHSAA's plan to move from 12 to 14 teams in 4A? Is it a good move or a bad one? Why?

Let me know what you think and post a comment below.

Posted by patrick.schmiedt@trib.com

Send This | Categories:

(35) Comments

Posted by: anon on March 23, 2008 2:12AM EST

I say just stay with the 12 teams in 4a. Then if or when Gillette, Casper, and Cheyenne add new high schools that will make the 4a class grow. If those three each added a school then the 4a teams are alot closer in enrollment sizes. Then you could go with the 16 largest schools in 4a, and the next 16 in 3a, and so on.

Posted by: Fan from Hillsdale on March 23, 2008 4:06PM EST

Personally, I am a big fan of playing teams close to home, especially in a state the size of Wyoming and with our long winters (and the resulting road issues).

I would add Lander to the mix, go with uneven alignments, and move to a quad system, much like 1A and 2A used to have. Although this would make it less likely that the eight best teams would be a the state tournament, it would still allow the best team from each corner of the state to take a shot at winning the state crown. To make this work, we have to look at equity at the regional level rather than trying to seek balance statewide. The best way to look at this is to simply recognize that Lander is large enough to compete annually with Riverton and Sheridan can compete with Natrona and Gillette. At the state level, the champion should still ultimately be a team that had a steller year, regardless of enrollment.

I really do think that travel in high school sports in Wyoming over the course of the regular season is a problem that needs to be addressed by the WHSAA.

Posted by: WY Traveler on March 23, 2008 11:07PM EST

Riverton, Cody, Evanston, Rock Springs, and Green River have won a combined (one) state championship in boys basketball in 20 years. They need to consider Winter travel and the safety of students. The big dogs will still get their titles. We know that those making the decisions will not consider this because they are still upset about a smaller cinderella team getting (one) state title. By the way, Jackson to Gillete 404 miles, Cheyenne to Star Valley 436 miles. Good luck

Posted by: bandman on March 24, 2008 9:56AM EST

OK, I know this would probably never work and is conter-productive to the conversation... but lets go from 12 to 9. Thats right... 9.

The issue of fairness of size is a big issue for lots of schools. Most of Riverton will never be happy playing in 4A and schools like Lovel will not be happy playing in 3A. I am pretty sure most 2A and 1A schools dont gripe much about being in their classification and they are also us used to being bounced back and forth between classifications (i.e. Upton and LFL). So, lets just take the top 9 schools on the list (800+) in one classification, the next 9 (500-700) in the next classification, then I think the next 9 (250-499), and then keep 2A and 1A as is.

This state is pretty spoiled when it comes to state tournaments in the fact that we get such a high percentage of school in the games. So lets stay spoiled... let all 9 teams in the tournament and just battle it out. I think there would be less complaining!

Posted by: HS Sports Fan on March 24, 2008 10:11AM EST

Bandman - I like your proposal for 9 at the 4A. THis allows for the future building of new high schools in Gillette, Casper, and CHeyenne and will bring that classicfication back to 12. It really is about numbers. After 4A, I really believe we need more than 9 teams. Make it truly an enrollment issue and not rely so much on keeping classifications balanced (12-16-16-all the rest). THese suggestions have been posted on previous blogs. Perhaps Patrick could transfer them so we dont have to dream them up again.

Posted by: Wolverine73 on March 24, 2008 12:35PM EST

All the WHSAA is doing is adding two more practice squads for the big schools and giving the small (4A) schools some opponents they can be competitive with. The fact remains, they will split it north/south and the big schools will continue to dominate each conference. I agree with fan from hillsdale, they need to realign their conferences so that at least the small schools can be competitive at the conference level. I had earlier posted an idea for a 3 conference alignment with the top 15 biggest schools. Plains conference would be both Casper, both Cheyenne, and Gillette. Foothills conference would be Sheridan, Rock Springs, Green River, Laramie, and Evanston. The Mountain conference would be Riverton, Lander, Jackson, Star Valley, and Cody. This alignment would conference schools very similar in size, keep travel requirements as reasonable as possible, and keep very long running rivalries in place. To keep the big schools happy, (in an 8 team state tourney), give them 3 automatic bids and 2 each for the smaller conferences, then add the 8th team as a wild card based upon 4A record. This should allow the "8 best teams" to get to state; allow the smaller schools to be competitive at least at the conference level; and cut down on the number of mandatory conference games that are 200+ miles away.

Posted by: SportsLlama on March 24, 2008 1:38PM EST

I don't like the proposals, but Patrick is spot on when he says this will probably happen. I think the schools like Cody, Jackson, SV, Riverton and the like would have a much easier time swallowing the 4A Class if the suggestion that the East/West alignment was approved in the 14-team league.

Whenever I've talked about this subject, it seems that I'm told that it's the schools in the 1A and 2A holding up a lot of change. Can someone tell me if this is the case? Most of the ideas that make the most sense (like Wolverine73's idea for the conferences based on proximity )will not be approved. It's what we've come to expect isn't it?

Posted by: Wolverine73 on March 24, 2008 5:13PM EST

I guess one need ask: What is the WHSAA trying to accomplish? You state that they took the first step in "revamping" the 4A classification. I just don't see how throwing 2 more potential doormats (no offense intended to Jackson or Cody because both maintain very competitive programs at their current level) into a 4A system that is already screwed up is "revamping" anything. If they are trying to improve competition this is the wrong direction. All they are doing is throwing two more small schools into the equation, with the dubious task of trying to compete against schools with 700+ more students. If they are trying to improve travel situations, they will ultimately get that wrong too, because I agree with you that the Bigs will never go for an East/West split; then you're back to teams traveling clear across the state for conference games. The inclusion of Jackson and Star Valley makes the conference split much tougher. The WHSAA needs to set its goal first, then work toward achieving that goal. As it stands, adding 2 schools to 4A achieves nothing. They either need to cut the 4A numbers as Bandman recommended or form conferences that make sense geographically and competively.

Posted by: Patrick Schmiedt on March 24, 2008 7:19PM EST

Wolverine73, I agree. Revamp is probably the wrong word. But I do think a 14-team league with an East-West split makes sense both geographically and competitively. I do like the concept of a three-pod or four-pod system with 15 teams, too.

I was willing to give the current alignment a chance, but this year, I think it's proven to be more trouble than it's been worth.

SportsLlama, I'm not sure what you mean when you say the 1A and 2A schools are holding up the change. Sure, I think smaller schools are more resistant to change (for example, the 2A and 1A East Regional basketball tournaments), but I don't really think the 1A and 2A schools really care what the big schools decide to do on their own....

anon, the problem with your proposal is that it will be at least 20 years before Cheyenne, Casper and Gillette all have new high schools. I've ranted about this before, but here's the short version: Cheyenne's new school has been held up time and time again by the school facilities commission. And Casper won't propose a new high school and start construction until Cheyenne's is done. And Gillette won't go until both Casper and Cheyenne are up and running. That, at minimum, will be 20 years. With Wyoming's current school climate, those changes aren't coming soon.

--patrick

Posted by: SV Fan on March 24, 2008 8:59PM EST

I think we should split the schools by numbers for now. Look short term to build for the long haul. Split the classifications by numbers. Like 1000 on up is 4a, 400 or 450 to 999 3A and so on. That would encourage the largers schools to split if they want more competition. (The current system doesn't encourage that.) Then when everyone has split and get the school sizes down a bit, go to top 16 in 4A, next 16 in 3A or something like that. I don't think anyone would feel badly once things get carved up a bit in the larger schools.

If we must go to 14 schools next year then we need to go East/West. If you can't get in the top 4 in your Region you probably won't win state. Keep travel down. Besides some sports aren't size dominated. (Wrestling) There is no reason to put Jackson and Star Valley in two different conferences if they are 60 miles apart. Suck it up, get in the top 4 or don't go to state.

Cheyenne is building a new school right now. Gillette has two schools, one team and could split today if they wanted to. Casper could get on it very shortly if they wanted. We all know what Casper wants Casper gets so lets encourage some growth. Think outside the box and try something new.

Posted by: Mo on March 25, 2008 3:16AM EST

Lander needs in. Cheyenne's HS will be up and going soon...don't ask, I just know.

Travel needs to be a consideration but competition and scheduling should always take precedence over
some of the other issues such as leveling playing fields.

I agree with Patrick, the numbers are the most simplistic and fair means of establishing the classes.

Posted by: scott on March 25, 2008 9:55AM EST

It doesn't matter how many schools are in each class. Do you think it takes away from Jackson when they win another skiing state championship even though their are only 6 or 7 schools with skiing programs? No, they are just as proud even though there are not many schools with skiing programs. I think the best thing they could do for travel, and equity when it comes to size is go 8 in 4a (all over 1000 students) next 10 in 3a (900-400). This would cut down on travel and competitiveness would be better....at least until some other highschools come on line.

Posted by: OSP on March 25, 2008 11:21AM EST

SV, what is it that we all know Casper wants?

Posted by: Wolverine73 on March 25, 2008 11:32AM EST

I do agree with you Patrick that if they add the two teams to 4A AND go with the East/West split, that would actually be progress. But as you so factually pointed out in your article, there will be extreme pressure from the big schools to either split it North/South or do some crazy thing like sending the two Casper schools to the west, and Rock Springs and Riverton to the East.

Back in the days when, in football, the West champioin met the East champion for the state title; the big schools had a legitimate complaint that in most cases 2-3 of the big schools could have beaten the West champion; but in the 8 team state format; they still get 4 of there 7 teams into the playoffs with a chance to win state. Maybe they can argue that we only get 6 of the best 8 teams to the playoffs, but once you get to the lower seeds, do we really need to figure out whether the 5th seed from the East is better than the 4th seed from the West??

While their current proposal makes the most sense of anything they proposed in a while, I just think history indicates there's a good chance they will cave to the concerns of the big schools and tweak it in some way that doesn't make sense..

Posted by: SportsLlama on March 25, 2008 12:34PM EST

Patrick -

In speaking with folks who attend the meetings, there is concern in the 1A 2A ranks with preserving traditional rivalries and competitions. That's all I was saying.

All of this is in regard to the five-class system used for football and getting it to work with other sports.

Of the 70+ schools in Wyoming, the vast majority have under 300 students. I know this is preaching to the choir with you, as you are well aware of this, but when it comes to voting on a statewide change, the school with 50 students has as much of a say as the school with 2000 students.

To get a system approved or revamped, the majority has to agree on it. I know that Hulett could care less if Natrona pounds Star Valley.

I honestly don't mind the proposal with the 14-teams with an East/West split.

The only thing I absolutely fed up with is Regional events in Casper. I'm not trying to pick a fight with the good folks in Casper, but there are times (volleyball this year for instance) that we're making the 7-hour trip to Casper three times in four weeks. Track is approaching a similar situation in May with the Track & Field classic, (yes I know not everyone goes to this), then regionals, then state the following week.

With the current makeup, and the rotation of the sports, and the fact that there are two Casper schools out of six in the 4A West, that means the odds of regionals for any given sport being in the city of Casper is pretty high. I can deal with all the rest, but by the end of the year, it's an amazing amount of windshield time.

I truly believe that if the powers that be got this 14 or 15-team proposal approved with an East/West split, it would be acceptable to most of the schools involved.

Posted by: Brandon on March 25, 2008 1:44PM EST

Llama,

You make some great points. Going back to a previous article, I think the three class system would be fantastic. There will always be someone on the short end of the stick, but it could provide for easier scheduling, less travel (which truly should not be a deciding factor), and a great post-season atmosphere.
Something else that no one has mentioned is when we start and end our seasons. Most other states end their winter sport seasons in mid to late February. Ours overlap horribly in the spring but have a two week down period in the fall. That might help with travel issues in the January and February months. Just an idea.

Finally the regionals are always rotated as best as possible. While it does double up this year, four of the next five years, the Casper schools will be in the southwest corner of the state for regionals, in track anyway.

It is great to have this as an arena for open discussion. I think the WHSAA can find some practical solutions outside of its meeting rooms if they are willing.

Posted by: HS Sports Fan on March 25, 2008 9:59PM EST

Llama - There is only a two/three week down time in the fall if your team doesn't qualify for post season. If you are fortunate to play in the championship, your kids get 1 day off.

Posted by: SportsLlama on March 25, 2008 11:22PM EST

Brandon makes some good points in that perhaps the competition dates could be moved up a bit. As for our side of the state that plays Idaho schools every year, they begin their season(s) some two to three weeks before Wyoming and that carries over throughout the year. HS Sports Fan also brings up the very valid point that schools like Jackson and Buffalo this past season had the Sunday after their state game to prepare for the b-ball / wrestling seasons. Now I know that winning a state title goes a long way towards getting over that little fact as Coach Wiley can probably attest, but it is a bit crazy.

BTW Patrick - Nobody has covered the classification meetings better than you do and it's much appreciated by those who don't have the chance to attend. Keep up the good work and while you're at it, ask those deep pockets at the Tribune for a raise.

Posted by: anon on March 26, 2008 1:45AM EST

Here's a thought....Casper shouldn't host any regional events in which they host the state championships.

As for the 14 team 4a split...it should be East/West and who cares if they are equal because there is nothing you can do about the fact that 7 of the 8 largest schools are in the East.

When Cheyenne South High School is finished then you can add Lander Valley to the west to make the 4a an even 16 teams. If Casper and Gillette ever add a school then it will be really intersting to figure out!!! Who knows what the school populations will be by then???

Posted by: WYO DUDE on March 26, 2008 5:24PM EST

The WHSAA is a joke. Their priorities are not with the student-athletes. This decision to add two teams to 4A is purely political and has no reason. Why???

Posted by: Patrick Schmiedt on March 26, 2008 6:49PM EST

anon,
The more I think about it, the more I like your idea about regionals. I think it'd be pretty easy to extend to other sports, as well.
--patrick

Posted by: 167 wrestler on March 26, 2008 7:10PM EST

I just watched a video on the star valley independant websight where the athletic director was talking about the new 4A 14 team proposal and how they might split the conferences. He talked about them being split East-West which makes the most sense geographicaly but as for school size it would put all of the larger schools in the East with the smaller schools in the West. This makes sense as far as travel and time away from school go but leaves a so called "power conference" which might not get "the best 8 teams" to state. He talked of a proposal where the top 2 teams from each conference would recieve automatic bids to state and the rest of the teams would "play in" for the remaining 4 spots. I think this idea has alot of merrit even if we don't go to 14 I think the conferences should be realianed East-West with the play in scenario. The only problem I can see is Do all of the teams participate in a conferance tournament and the top 2 get the automatic bids and then they would need another "play in tournament" with the remaining teams from both conferences. Or would the top 2 teams from each conferance during the regular season get their ticket punched to state and bypass the "play in" tournament. basically the "play in" tournament would replace the regional tournaments. (This won't work for wrestling by the way) I see advantages but I can also see a few problems?

Posted by: wyofloater on March 26, 2008 7:35PM EST

The only reasonable justification for realignment is travel/scholastic. If 4A is going to increase in size by adding smaller schools, everyone's travel woes had better be reduced!

Forget the "8 best teams" nonsense. If you're wondering why, just look at the number of upsets that take place in the tournaments. I kind of like the idea above of reducing 4A to 8 teams or so and having more flexibility in 3A and below to arrange for better geographic distribution.

Posted by: a1fan on March 27, 2008 12:57AM EST

As long as Wyoming has the populatoin density that it has travel will be a problem. There is no getting around it or our state without it.Gilette with there insestence of having two schools with one team is depriving their students of the oppertunity to play high schools sports at least the ones who arn't the top athletes in the school.And finally i think casper is the best place to hold the state touraments it is the most cetrally located and it has the infrastucture to house the fans who show up for the events.All the other large towns in our state or at the corners and pose long distances for more pwople than Casper does Any way there's my 2 cents worth

Posted by: anon on March 27, 2008 1:30AM EST

No 4a team should get an automatic bid to state. That is ridiculous. None of the other classes have anything like that, and sometimes a highly ranked team doesn't make it to state. Look at what has happened in the 3a west the last two years. The #1 boys seeds didn't even make it to state. This year the 1 and 2 both didn't go. If the 4a is so determined to do that then knock their class down to 8. Then they can always have their best 8 at the state tournament. If they want to keep having the 12 or 14 teams then run a regular regional tournament like the other classes and get rid of these automatic bids they are giving out.

I'm a big supporter of the super-regional tournaments. With the old conference tournament format I have watched teams highly ranked in the state get upset in the conference semi-finals and then had to pray that the team that beat them went on to win the tournament just so they could get a chance for a Monday challenge game to make it to state. Now at least they are guaranteed the chance to come back and get into the 3rd place game and get to state. And best of all, no more challenge games on Monday before state! Also, the 2a needs to do like the 1a with their challenge games to get into regionals instead of the 4 and 5 seeds from the same conference playing to see who goes.

"Getting the best 8 to state"....well correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that St. Stephens had a horrible record a couple of years ago and then somehow managed to place at regionals, and then went on a tear and won the state championship. That's why they have the tournament. That's why they play the games. Teams shoot for the conference title, and then to win the regional title, and then to win the state title. Was St. Stephens the best team during the regular season or regionals? Nope. But they sure were during state. That's high school sports for ya!! That's what is great about it, you never know what's going to happen!!

Patrick,
I didn't mean to single out Casper as to not hosting a regional event in which they host the state event also. That should go for any and all schools. It extends to other sports. If none of the other schools have the facilities to host the regional event, then Casper could host both.

Posted by: Brian Shultz on March 27, 2008 11:27AM EST

OK, I thought I would throw this one out for everyone. Break up the entire state into groups of 8. Decided by 8th through 10th enrollment from two years prior. Every year the "conferences" could change, but you would know a year in advance for scheduling. Then, Each "conference" would have a tournament to determine their champion. These champions would then meet the following week for an all class state tournament. In football, however, they would just have an 8 team play-off to determine a champion. with no all class champ.

Posted by: Brian Shultz on March 27, 2008 11:38AM EST

Continuation: This would then leave regular season scheduling to the schools. It would no longer matter "who" a team plays in the regular season. Everyone would know that they have a shot to get to the big game. Every athlete would have the chance to be in a play-off, or tournament atmosphere. This would lend to the possibility of a "Hickory High" scenario.

Posted by: Commish on March 27, 2008 4:59PM EST

Shultz, what a great idea! That would actuaaly put "compete" back into competition. Since everyone knows the one of the biggest complaints is travel time and distance, this cuts down on that. Then when teams qualify for the state tournament, it is actually a prestigious event.

Posted by: HS Sports Fan on March 27, 2008 10:30PM EST

Brian - That is an idea. I wonder how it would look if you took the same idea and went to two classifications? Even with that, I don't think it is very likely that it would happen. Burns would have play the Cheyenne schools????

Posted by: 1afan on March 27, 2008 11:34PM EST

Let me get this straight no clasification just by location? So Midwest Natrona cnty Kelly Walsh Sheridan and Buffalo would all play each other.
Cambell cnty Wright Nsi Moorcroft Sundance Hulett
Upton. Just for the north east i don't think the big sports football basketball soccer would have parity between the schools.Wrestling maybe track posibly
but i don't think overall it would benefit anybody.The only thing it would do is cut travel time
and the expense of fuel for the busses.People think if we want to have high school sports in this state we need to learn that travel is onr of the things we will always need to contend with.

Posted by: Mike Walk on March 28, 2008 8:02PM EST

It always makes me laugh when I see the people in Jackson and Star Valley start to wine. They are used to being the big fish in the little pond and now will do their share of wining because it might be time for them to get eaten. I didn't here much complaining at the state basketball tournament last year as Star Valley with its 700 student enrollment or whatever it is was beating Mt. View in the title game with their 285 enrollment. If it happens do what the smaller schools have done for years. "Deal With IT!"

Posted by: Charla Goe on March 29, 2008 7:24PM EST

Mike, Where in these comments is anyone from Jackson or Star Valley whinning?

Posted by: HS Sports Fan on March 30, 2008 1:29PM EST

All this March Madness has me thinking about a new approach for basketballs culminating events. Let's set up conferences based on geography with some consideration for size. Play conference schedules, have a conference tournament (mid-Feb). Then on the Sunday following conference tournaments, lets have a selection sunday and have our own State wide tournament that is hosted at various sites through out the state. COnference champions get automatic bids and others are invited based on their performance during the season (maybe we could use power ratings). We could do it much like the NCAA and have 64 teams invited and have them play in 4 regional tournaments, culminating with the Final four in Casper the second weekend in March. Before you say this isn't fair to the smaller schools, consider Davidson this year in the NCAA tournament.

Posted by: wyofloater on March 31, 2008 12:52PM EST

HS Sports Fan,

That's an interesting idea but a lot of thought better go into exactly who should be on the selection committee. A quick review of the team rankings throughout the season shows just how much coaches and the media tend to "vote for their own".

Posted by: HS Sports Fan on April 1, 2008 12:46AM EST

wyofloater - I agree with you 100%. I think Davidson just makes me believe that a small relatively unknown school can play with the big dogs. Consider Wind River, Sundance, Lusk, and Tongue River this year. All of these schools could have made a run in a super tourney in Wyoming this year.
.
Consider South Dakota for a minute. #1 Red Cloud played #2 St. Thomas More in either districts or regionals of Class A this year. St. Thomas More didn't get to go to the State Tournament, because of their geography. A super tournament would have had them seeded away from each other and the it would have been more likely that both would have gone farther in the tournament. Not sure if that is a good example or not, and it still doesn't address wyofloaters concern, but I like to babble.